Fotoboek Terrapene carolina triunguis

[Hansm]

Bedankt Joanna

[Hansm]

Bedankt Jon

[Hansm]

[Hansm]

Bedankt Jason

[Hansm]

Bedankt Vearl Brown

[Vinch]

One of my Three-Toed Boxies, Noiraude, female:

[Hansm]

Are you breeding with her ?

[Vinch]

No, because of these reasons:
- At the pics date, I'didn't have other T.c. triunguis (actually, I have 2 male and 5 females)
- These eggs would have hatched to T. c. major X T. c. triunguis babies !

So, I didn't incubated these eggs (5 eggs of 3 cm X 2,5 cm each for a little tortle of only 12 cm of length !!!)

Later, I will post some pics of eggs.

At the date of these pics, I had only three terrapenes (male TOO, female TCT and male TCM).
They came from an other person who was never be interested to breed them.

Now, each (sub-)species is separated in its own enclosure in order to avoid unwanted hybridization.

[Hansm]

I understand and you are right to not incubate these eggs, your only problem now is this T c triunguis female from the picture can be fertile from the T c major male for several years..............

[Barbara]

Beautiful animal

Hans do you mean dat female Terrapene save the sperm? Or is this the case by all turtlespecies?

[Vinch]

I understand and you are right to not incubate these eggs, your only problem now is this T c triunguis female from the picture can be fertile from the T c major male for several years..............

Yes, surely !!!

That's the questions I would like to be answered:
 At now, I have two males T.c. triunguis. If these males mate with this female, would the new sperm fertilize the next eggs rather than the former ?
Or should I wait a few seasons of mating before to incubate her eggs?
And, if it would be the case, how many years should I wait ?

[Hansm]

@Vince its a difficult question becaus not exactly everything about this subject is known.
To be save I think 4 years of not incubathing here eggs would be enough.
Becaus you have 4 other femalse I should not take a risk on hybrization, I dont think new sperm is be used by the female first before using the stored sperm, even possible she is using a combination of both there is not enough research done to tell exact how this work.

Possible its better to keep this female sepperate from your other T c triunguis femalse, becaus if you find a clutch in th incloseur without kowing who is the Mother to be sure its not from here.

@ Yes Barbare a female Terrapene can store the sperm for severl years and lay fertile eggs without a male, allot of Turtles have this possibility.

[Vinch]

@Vince its a difficult question becaus not exactly everything about this subject is known.
To be save I think 4 years of not incubathing here eggs would be enough.
Becaus you have 4 other femalse I should not take a risk on hybrization, I dont think new sperm is be used by the female first before using the stored sperm, even possible she is using a combination of both there is not enough research done to tell exact how this work.

Possible its better to keep this female sepperate from your other T c triunguis femalse, becaus if you find a clutch in th incloseur without kowing who is the Mother to be sure its not from here.

Yes, I think you're right.
I will keep this female separate from the 4 other ones. So that, eggs will be identified with greater certainty.

Another question, in the hybrids T.c.major X T.c. triunguis, which of the three-toed or four-toed characters is  dominant ? (so that, it would be a help in hybrids distinction...)

[Hansm]

Becaus its in the same Terrapene-carolina group its not called hybrids but intergrades, and very difficult
to see the distinction, i don't believe there are dominant characters with hybrides/or intergrades, each animal is uniek.
Its more a case of not seeing all characters a specie have in 1 turtle, and still very difficult, this makes it so important to not cross breed.
Its mutch easier to see difference from a hybride in stead of a intergrade.

Intergrades between T cc, T cm and T ct are never 100 % clear combination with T cb is sometimes more clear.
And don't forget hybrids and intergrades are both found in nature too
Some people believe T c major is a cross between ancient T putnami and T cb, T ct and Tcc but no evidence of this is found.
Although you can see colour variation in T c major depending on the area were the naturally occour.

[Vinch]

Becaus its in the same Terrapene-carolina group its not called hybrids but intergrades, and very difficult
to see the distinction, i don't believe there are dominant characters with hybrides/or intergrades, each animal is uniek.
Its more a case of not seeing all characters a specie have in 1 turtle, and still very difficult, this makes it so important to not cross breed.
Its mutch easier to see difference from a hybride in stead of a intergrade.

Intergrades between T cc, T cm and T ct are never 100 % clear combination with T cb is sometimes more clear.
And don't forget hybrids and intergrades are both found in nature too
Some people believe T c major is a cross between ancient T putnami and T cb, T ct and Tcc but no evidence of this is found.
Although you can see colour variation in T c major depending on the area were the naturally occour.

I understand your using of intergrades terms... As the same meaning of subspecific hybrids !!! 
But, you're right, using this term avoids any confusion...

Following your answer, some authors think that the actual terrapene carolina subspecies issued from two distinct lineages and , because of some evident reasons:
- differences of cranial distinctions.
- different mating behavior (T c major are more agressive and some are killers of other males ! T c triunguis are very tolerant...)
- different adaptations ( T c major are more aquatic, T c t and T c c are more terrestrial)
- not clear intergrading zones between T c major and T c triunguis, because of their different lifetyles...

So that, these authors argued the splitting of two distincts groups, or species:
- Terrapene major, with two subspecies: T m major & T m bauri...
- Terrapene carolina, with two subspecies: T c carolina and T c triunguis...

I don't have the papers at now about T c mexicana and T c yucatana status...
What would your opinion be about these author's reflexions?

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